Anniversary Heart Two

[Jim Krager]

Finished another heart for a friend, charging $75.00, it takes about 1 1/2 hours to carve and 10 minutes to oil and buff. Should I charge more or less?

[KarenW]

Hi Jim - I'm glad to see someone talking pricing for a change!
I've been selling custom woodworks for a lot of years and the one thing that has stayed true no matter where I've lived is 'know your market'.
What may sell here for $75 may not get a second glance somewhere else at half the price so it really depends on who is doing the buying.
We've come up with a pricing formula that has (so far) worked for us and our customers.
We figure the cost per board foot of lumber and always figure full numbers. If a piece takes only half a board foot we charge for the entire board foot. One and a half, charge for 2.
Then we figure in how many total hours on the file plus machining at $10 an hour.
Then add the number of hours of labor like milling the lumber, staining, finishing, etc at $20 an hour.
Total plus shipping and it's a done deal.

If you'd like to go into specifics then PM me and I'll give you actual numbers on some of our projects.

Nice carve by the way... love the walnut!

[BillK]

Your approach to pricing is very interesting to me. In industries that I have been involved with it is done opposite to what you have here for labor rates. CNC machining is usually costed even higher than non-CNC machining, and much higher than non machining operations. The cost is related to the equivalent output rate from the various machining processes.

To take it to an extreme, if the plaque here was hand carved, we know you might be measuring the time in days instead of hours. So to me it would be justified to charge more for the CNC time, considering the investment in the equipment and the expertise involved in creating the input files, than for the hand work. The CNC output work would still be at a cost advantage to the hand work because of the speed, or rate of output.

Just my opinion, be interested in other opinions. And btw, very nice job and I would say $75 is more than fair.

[Jim Krager]

Thank you for your pricing suggestion. Since this is a very repeatable design, when I first created the file it took quite a few hours in designing and now I just have to change names, date, customers words and rebuild those toolpaths. So how do you build the design time into new carvings? Actual machining time doesn't change much.

[KarenW]

Yes, I realize that most people would charge higher for machining time but I take a different approach to it for several reasons.
First - it's a machine in my shop, just like a planer or table saw or lathe but while the CNC is running, doing its thing, I can be in another area of the shop doing something else (which I'm getting paid for also). I can't do that standing at the lathe since that's not a hands-off operation. When the CNC is running over there and I'm over here doing something else that's sort of double-dipping - I'm getting paid for that time from two different customers.
Second - I value my labor much higher than I value something that is machine-produced. Anyone can be taught to use the software, clamp a piece of lumber down, hit the OK button and watch a computer create.
Not everybody can choose the perfect colors or lumber species or cull for grain or lay on a perfect finish or choose the right style of frame or figure out how two pieces go together securely and make it all come together to look GOOD. That comes strictly from my head, my eye and my experience and I value that much more than any machine.
I'm not saying the whole CNC process is a snap or that a monkey could be taught to do it - not by any stretch and I don't aim to offend anyone because I know the learning curve having been there not all that long ago. But I'm 100% comfortable with the process now, after a quick 6 months, whereas it took years to develop that "eye" or instinct for lumber and I've worked at finishing for over 30 years. Let's face it - we can have the most beautiful design ever created but if it's cut on the wrong species or the dye or stain bleeds or the finish is grainy with dust and fuzz then what do we have - a less than pleasing finished product which does nothing but detract from that most beautiful design ever created which was cut perfectly on the CNC.
Third - my machine is paid for so I'm not looking for customers to foot that bill a second time. My time to work on files is at night after everything else is done. Time I would have normally spent watching something pathetic on TV or playing Bejeweled, killing time till I could legally go to bed. I consider my time with a file in VCarve to be an interesting, enjoyable time rather than work. And once a file is set it's there until your computer crashes. Doesn't cost me a dime, I can use it 10,000 times at no cost to me and I'd be sitting here anyway. Much better to be mentally stimulated by vectors than mentally rotted by broadcast television.

So yes, while I understand every word you wrote and am well aware that most people would disagree with my thinking, it's what works for me.
I could just as easily turn the numbers around and the difference is a mere $20 in the two main items but I value my experience more.
Maybe this is a case of tomato/tomahto?

[4DThinker]

Please charge at least a little for "CNC time", even when you are otherwise getting paid for your time. Make it a flat $1 fee if nothing else. Why?

- While it runs it uses up electricity someone has to pay for.
- While it runs it is slowly wearing out, and will need new bits and a new router eventually.
- It was an initial outlay of cash that should be recouped from project sales.
- Lastly, to get customers used to respecting and paying for that CNC time.

JMHO.

[KarenW]

4D, if you read my original post you'd see that I do figure in a cost for machining.
Just not as high as most people would charge.

[Jim Krager]

It doesn't seem fair to charge the first customer all the costs for creating the file and nothing to any other customers that use the file. It seems like there should be a way to pass on some of the cost to other customers. I definitely believe that you should charge for using your CNC and bits because machines wear out and bits get dull and need to be replaced, so if you don't charge a little for that then you are replace and repairing out of your profit.

Does any one else have any systems for pricing your work?

[KarenW]

I agree, Jim, which is one of the reasons my CNC charge is low - a rate for the file and a per hour rate for the machining.
But we may be getting hung up on too many specifics like charging an amount JUST for CNC. Would we figure in an amount JUST for ripping lumber or JUST for planing rough stock? I mean, after all, those are also shop machines that need to be paid for by with blades that wear out, right?

One of the easiest ways is to simply figure out what your time is worth whether it's machining time or labor time - what are the total number of hours you have in that one project and what's your time worth?
I don't nitpick about how many kilowatts of electricity I'm using or or how many cuts per bit I can expect because some things just fall under "cost of doing business" and at the end of the year most of that is a profit/loss on a Schedule C form anyway. As I originally said above, I've been doing this for a long time and I've always operated in the black... some years it's a bit gray but so far, never red.
Is it right for everyone? No, obviously. And I wouldn't expect anyone to follow my formula but it works in both my shops for both sides of my business.

[Jim Krager]

Thank you Karen for you suggestions. I getting ready to retire and don't want to start a business, but selling a few things now and then for extra cash would be nice.