Altering X and Y orientation

Questions/answers/discussion about initial setup of your CNC Shark

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MacMarty15221
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:52 am

Altering X and Y orientation

Post by MacMarty15221 »

Sorry if this question has been asked before....

Out of the box, Is ths machne set up to cut LONG signs? Say, 12" high and 50" wide?

I am setting up a new CNC Shark HD2.0 machine, it appears that the X axis is executed by the side-to-side stepper on the gantry, and the Y axis is executed by the stepper that is built into the base.

I tried to reverse this by exchanging the X and Y stepper cables at the control box. Now, X is moving the way I want, but the Y is "upside down". (In a LinuxCNC environment, I'd have the ability to set a preference bit to INVERT the Y direction signal, then all would be good.)

I know that Vcarve can handle "wide" signs using the Tiling feature. How do I get the machine (or perhaps the Shark Control Panel) to do this also?

MacMarty15221
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by MacMarty15221 »

P.S. I have done some more searching on this topic, and I see that the solution of "rotating the gantry" seems to be the only solution offered so far. Is this STILL the case? It seems very hard to imagine that Next Wave has not addressed this issue in the last year or two. Every other controller system I have ever seen (specifically including Mach2 and LinuxCNC) provides the means to invert any of the digital step/direction signals going to the controller box. Why not this one?

I've contacted Rockler Shark Support, and all they suggest the workaround of pivoting the design orientation in VCarve. That hardly seems like a technically robust and customer-friendly answer. These "workarounds" will restrain the growth of the Shark series. The other CNCs in the market do not need "workarounds".

Lastly, I hear that NWA does make a limited number of long-bed machines, as demand warrants. Are these machines really built with a "tall" Y axis and a standard X axis?

rungemach
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am
Location: Sarasota, Florida

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by rungemach »

If you are electrically inclined, you can reverse the direction of a 4 wire stepper by reversing 2 of the 4 wires, they must be on the same phase.

This is best done at the motor end in that the shark cables I have seen connect each of the 4 wires to a pair of thinner wires in the longer cable section that leads to the controller. Just find two of the 4 wires that are on one phase (low resistance between the two) and cut and reverse them. The motor will now be reversed. If you want to get fancy you could wire a two pole double throw switch at the motor and be able to switch back and forth (with the controller turned off of course).

I agree that this could be a part of the Shark software, and a nice feature to have, rather than having to flip the gantry. I don't think you will see it in the near future though.

4DThinker
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Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:00 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by 4DThinker »

I'm not sure this trick will work, but once the control panel is open, press CTRL+E, then enter 787. In the window that pops up: Change the Y Step value to a positive if it is a negative, or a negative if it is a positive, then save. Now see if the Y jogs the direction you want it to in the Control Panel.

MacMarty15221
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by MacMarty15221 »

4DThinker wrote:I'm not sure this trick will work, but once the control panel is open, press CTRL+E, then enter 787. In the window that pops up: Change the Y Step value to a positive if it is a negative, or a negative if it is a positive, then save. Now see if the Y jogs the direction you want it to in the Control Panel.
Wow, that sounds interesting, I will try it tomorrow when I am back at the machine. What other parameters are hidden away in this manner? What is magic about "787"?

MacMarty15221
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by MacMarty15221 »

rungemach wrote:If you are electrically inclined, you can reverse the direction of a 4 wire stepper by reversing 2 of the 4 wires, they must be on the same phase.This is best done at the motor end in that the shark cables I have seen connect each of the 4 wires to a pair of thinner wires in the longer cable section that leads to the controller.
I was thinking to accomplish this same outcome by wiring up a short "crossover cable", using a pair of DB9 connectors. Said cable would fit between the controller box and the associated axis' drive cable. Is there a documented "standard" pinout for the modern (ncPod-based) Sharks?

4DThinker
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:00 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by 4DThinker »

MacMarty15221 wrote:
4DThinker wrote:I'm not sure this trick will work, but once the control panel is open, press CTRL+E, then enter 787. In the window that pops up: Change the Y Step value to a positive if it is a negative, or a negative if it is a positive, then save. Now see if the Y jogs the direction you want it to in the Control Panel.
Wow, that sounds interesting, I will try it tomorrow when I am back at the machine. What other parameters are hidden away in this manner? What is magic about "787"?
I bought the new controller to update my old Shark Pro, and it wasn't setup right to run my old motors. Tech support told me to CTRL+E then 787 with the controller panel running so they could have me tell them the X/Y/Z stepper values. 787 is the only code I know of, and it reveals most of the variables I could imagine needed.

BTW, if you have switched the X and Y cables, then it is the X Stepper value you should check to switch your new Y axis direction.

For what is worth, my X and Y values were negative, and the Z was positive. I'll guess the - or + value dictates the spin direction of the motor. Default X and Y spin counterclockwise (-) to push the router/gantry in the default positive direction. Rotating X and Y by switching the cables leaves your new X (old Y) still positive when counterclockwise (-), but the new Y (old X) is now negative direction when counterclockwise (-). Changing the X value to a positive number should (in theory) have your new Y moving the opposite direction (positive) via a now clockwise (+) input.

rungemach
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am
Location: Sarasota, Florida

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by rungemach »

MacMarty

From the shark motor cable I have seen, the db9 connector is using 8 pins per motor. I think this was done due to the thin wire in these standard computer cables. The thicker wires from the motor are connected to two wires each in the long cable section and hence the db9 as well. so while it could be done with a db9 adapter, it would be more complex to be sure you find and reroute 4 pins correctly. Doing it wrong could damage the controller. much easier and safer to do at the motor end. NWA may be able to tell you the pinout. The Gecko 540 drivers I use only use 4 pins on the db9 for the motor, so I don't believe there is a universal standard for wiring a db9 to a 4 wire stepper.

However, the CTRL+E 787 is a better way to do this if you can us it to change the value of the setting you want.

Not sure why NWA did not offer this to you as a solution, or come up with an app that just changes the direction of the motor for you.
I am sure others would like this as well.

MacMarty15221
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:52 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by MacMarty15221 »

rungemach wrote: However, the CTRL+E 787 is a better way to do this if you can us it to change the value of the setting you want. Not sure why NWA did not offer this to you as a solution, or come up with an app that just changes the direction of the motor for you. I am sure others would like this as well.
THANK YOU, RUNGEMACH!!! PROBLEM SOLVED!

The Ctrl+E 787 solution worked PERFECTLY. I, too, am surprised that NWA and/or Rockler support was not forthcoming with this simple solution to an obvious request.

To recap this for future reference:
1) We swapped the X and Y cables at the back of the controller box. This makes the X axis parallel to the slots in the base extrusion.

2a) Open the Shark Control Panel, then press Ctrl-E. This opens a password field. Enter 787 as the password.
2b) A window with tuning parameters will appear. Look for the one named "Y step size in MM".
2c) The default value is a negative number. REMOVE the minus sign, leaving the numbers the same.
2d) Click SAVE. The tuning parameter window will disappear.

That is all you need! The next time you start the Shark Control panel, Machine X0Y0 will be at the front left corner of the table, and you will be able to carve designs that are wider than the table. :)

4DThinker
Posts: 951
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:00 am

Re: Altering X and Y orientation

Post by 4DThinker »

MacMarty15221 wrote:That is all you need! The next time you start the Shark Control panel, Machine X0Y0 will be at the front left corner of the table, and you will be able to carve designs that are wider than the table. :)
Glad that that tricked worked for you! I suspect NWA doesn't want to give out that info themselves as that panel also includes several other variables that could really screw up a user's system if changed.

Anyone using this trick alway remember to record the previous values before changing anything. If the results aren't what you expect then you'll know what to change the variable(s) back to.

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