Table leveling

Discussion about the CNC Shark Pro Plus HD

Moderators: al wolford, sbk, Bob, Kayvon

robthowells
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:45 pm

Table leveling

Post by robthowells »

also posted in "Setting up the CNC Shark"

FYI
After reading the issues concerning the leveling of the table on the shark cnc i sent the message below to customer service who responded within 12 hours.

my question:
I am considering purchasing the Mako Shark. However I have read in the Shark CNC forum that there are many issues with the table not being level. Before I drop 4k I would like to know if you have any further information on this issue,
Thanks

Rockler response:

The table on the CNC Shark is extruded aluminum, there is absolutely no way to guarantee flatness, the method that most operators use is to make a sub-base. When I was working in a machine shop we even did this on expensive Bridgeport milling machines because we wanted it to be perfect. There are ways to shim the table just as you would do on a table saw etc… But there isn’t a way to make it perfectly flat other than a sub-base.

Hope this helps,

Stan
Technical Support Dept.
800-260-9663

Wolffie1
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by Wolffie1 »

Well, in that case one would think it is about time a sub-base is made standard issue.
Wolffie

Eagle55
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:44 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by Eagle55 »

I agree with all of the discussion that has been covered all throughout the forum as to the faults and sometimes easy fixes of the Shark. And as soon as I get my permanent table built for the Shark I plan to do some rework on the table to solve some of the short comings discussed and that I have with the table. I'm sure that what I have planned will cost a hundred or two dollars and more than likely several hours work and it will result in a better table and easier to set up projects. However with all the faults aired I also have to in some ways defend the design of the Shark to a certain extent. When I look at the "Click-N-Carve" at $1600, and the CarveWright "experience" that I had a few years ago when it came out, at about the same price, and look at the big Shop Bots and many others in the $15,000 to $80,000 range which are way out of my league, both in price and size, I have to conclude that Next Wave has done a good job at getting a "real life" class of CNC down into the price range that I can afford it. Yes, it was a major expense for me, and probably more than I will ever spend on another vehicle, but it does what I need and is reasonably good at it. Perhaps they might have been better directed to cut design dollars less in certain areas, but keeping in mind that every additional dollar spent to do it better means just that much further to being out of the reach for many people to get into it. I don't know about most wood workers, but I know from my experience in working with tools and machinery, that there is very few tools that I don't find some way to modify more to my liking, whether it be improving an area of manufacturing or a jig to go with it or some attachment to make it more suited for what I need. I suspect that regardless of how they wound up with their design at Next Wave, I would have more than likely found something that needed changing on it. Yes, its a lot of money but in the world of CNC its an "economy" version and appropriately priced as such. Yes, in retrospect I wish they had spent an extra $100 on aluminum angles to mount the extrusions to instead of the plastic bar that flexes, but like any manufacturer, $100 more material along with additional labor might very well have translated into a $500 hirer price tag. I'm right on the line here..... much higher would have priced me out of the market. I would rather have something that works as it is (with all its faults) that I could modify as my special needs are discovered than to be completely priced out of the game. Its easy to say they should change what they are doing, but for those of us who know how difficult it is in reality to change things on a production level, its a little clearer why they don't. I would have thought that the Mako (whether limited edition or not) that appears to have attempted to address several of the faults of the HD model, might have come out with a better support system for the table but I'm not sure that it did. I'm glad they did something to have the work area more centered on the table... a task that I hope to improve on my HD when I overhaul the table eventually. All in all, I am at the year mark with the Shark HD and am quite please with it. Not that I like the table faults but I can live with it until I can correct it, in all honesty I feel like I got a good $4000 machine for my $4000. To expect a $10,000 machine for $4000 might be just a little bit unrealistic. I know I have a view on the subject and it may be in-line or contradictory with some other views but I don't think I am completely out in left field.

Roger
CNC Shark HD ~ Control Panel 2.0 ~ Windows 7 & XP
Located in West Tennessee near the Tennessee River
http://www.eaglecarver4.com

Wolffie1
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by Wolffie1 »

I have to agree with you in principle.
I have had people mocking me because I bought a Shark and then tinkered with it as I found my needs change.
However, that was my choice and, as I have always said, the Shark has its faults, some of them too simple to fix to understand why NWA is reluctant to do so.
All in all, though, I bought a machine I could afford at the time that taught me a lot and, as a result of that learning, I am now improving the design to suit MY needs.

Would I buy it again?
I doubt it. I am no longer a raw novice and as such, the Shark as supplied does not fulfill my needs today and I do not like the idea of proprietary control software that limits what I can do with it.

Would I dispose of the Shark?
I doubt it, I have turned it into my baby and it does what I want it to do.

Would I recommend others to buy a Shark.
If they are raw novices as I was, probably yes, with a disclaimer regarding the limitations of the Shark, that it is an entry level machine and that they more than likely will outgrow it in a short time as their needs grow.

I am also aware that, being the person I am, had I bought a machine that would have cost a lot more money, I would still have found things I wouldn't like about it and tinker with it until I was satisfied.

Cheers
Wolffie
Last edited by Wolffie1 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rungemach
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 am
Location: Sarasota, Florida

Re: Table leveling

Post by rungemach »

I guess I see two issues here, "flatness" and "level", which are not the same.
The question was about leveling, the NWA answer addressed flatness.
"Perfectly flat" is an ambiguous term as it has no dimensional tolerances attached to it.

To me, flatness is the surface quality of the table as in "peaks and valleys" etc.
Level would be the ability of the table top to be an equal distance from the router bit at a fixed Z throughout the range of travel.
( table top coplanar with the routers x and y axis)

A flat table may not be level, and a level table may not be "perfectly" flat.
Too much variation in either will not be optimal for carving and will show itself in things like the width of a narrow carved line made with a v bit. Vectric mentions the importance of a flat top surface in their training. This includes the flatness of the wood as well. The workpiece itself will overcome minor surface issues in the table top, but the top of the workpiece must be level to carve optimally.

Leveling is easily solved by adjustable table mounts. not very costly at all, for either the owner or the factory.

Flatness can be optimized by how the extrusions are bolted down to their supports, and how many supports are used.
Beyond that, flatness can be fine tuned by planing a sacrificial surface, which also protects the aluminum top.
Personally, I think that the table should be adjusted as level as possible before a top surface it is planed. Planing is not a universal bandaid for out of level tables.

Manufacturing tolerances and other issues cause variability from machine to machine, some users have reported tables being quite far from level, and they have corrected this on their own.

It seems unlikely that the design will change, so "it is what it is".

The shark is a low cost machine. The issue becomes value for the money and meeting of expectations.
Value can be increased by adopting low cost improvements.

This forum does a good job of laying out what a user encounters in their first year of ownership. The good and the bad, along with some great ideas for improvements from other users.

The CNC market in this price area (3000.00 - 6000.00 usd) is quite competitive, so it is best to be an informed consumer and look past the advertising when setting your expectations, no matter what manufacturer you choose.

Wolffie1
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by Wolffie1 »

You nailed the point as per usual Bob :)
Cheers
Wolffie

drueth
Posts: 208
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:09 am

Re: Table leveling

Post by drueth »

To all

This hole issue of leveling and "proper" setup has cause many a user to have problems and also I am sure some user to turn away from the shark. I have a shark pro hd and have spent the time to reinfource and level the top. I have seen some very good idea on what and how to do this.

Now the question is I would be glade to work with one or several other user to put togetger a how to set up the shark pro hd. I have no idea how much would be different with the other models that NWA make's as well as the new Mako. The second problem I have is will anything "we" post as a how to do this setup cause NWA to say you have alter your machine and we will (NWA) no longer warnty your machine. So the question I have here is What is NWA postion on some of the thing that I have and other have done to deal with this affect the warrenty of the machine. What I did was make the machine work to it fullest. and then there is the fact that I can spell like a 4 grader.
drueth
Shark Pro Plus HD
new to CNC 12/2012

Wolffie1
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by Wolffie1 »

Drueth
I can proofread anything that you come up with.
I have made a lot of improvements for my HD but since I kept and can replace the original parts, my warranty cannot be voided.
Cheers
Wolffie

robthowells
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:45 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by robthowells »

I was not sure what Rockler meant by a sub base so another e-mail:

Stan
Thanks for the quick response.
Does Rockler have plans for a sub base or is it discussed in the Shark setup instructions?
Thanks

No plans, it’s actually very simple… either double stick a piece of wood or plastic on the table and mill it down till it’s flat with an end mill or spiral mortising bit. Leaving it attached will insure that the it is flat to your machine. Then place the part you want to machine on the sub-base, clamp it down or double stick tape it down and you are guaranteed a very flat surface – or at least it is as flat as you will ever get it.

Thanks!

Stan
Technical Support Dept.


Hope this helps

Wolffie1
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Re: Table leveling

Post by Wolffie1 »

"No plans, it’s actually very simple… either double stick a piece of wood or plastic on the table"
What is a piece of wood?
A piece of 2x4, a sheet of MDF or what? What thickness would work? Milling plastic???? Get outtahere (Aussie Expression, but I wasn't born to speak English either)
You cannot mill plastic smooth, just look at the words on the back of the gantry, hence tape will not stick.

robthowells wrote:No plans, it’s actually very simple… either double stick a piece of wood or plastic on the table and mill it down till it’s flat with an end mill or spiral mortising bit. Leaving it attached will insure that the it is flat to your machine. Then place the part you want to machine on the sub-base, clamp it down or double stick tape it down and you are guaranteed a very flat surface – or at least it is as flat as you will ever get it.

Thanks!

Stan
Technical Support Dept.

Hope this helps
That's all well and good it you are only making small projects but what's the point of all those track if you cover the complete base with a sub-base? It is not possible to clamp to "a piece of wood" :roll:
It is not possible to double stick large projects without them slipping.
It could also turn out rather expensive in the long run, both in tools and power, if you have to keep on end milling a full size base. MDF does not take kindly to removing double sized tape and once covered in saw dust it does not stick any more. Other timbers have a nasty habit of raising splinters when you remove the tape.


Cheers
Wolffie

Post Reply